many thanks!

[winterbadger]

Thanks to everyone who replied to my previous post; I was trying (not entirely successfully) not to make replies myself because I was more interested in hearing other people's points of view than in having a debate.

I would be interested, however, in discussing reactions to the proposition, outlined in the op-ed Brooke mentioned and elsewhere, that the niqab is not part of the cultural norms of western society, and that the same sort of consideration for western norms ought to apply to people who bring their customs to our countries that people of other nations expect when we westerners visit their countries. Yes, not every western person is offended or upset by women wearing the niqab, but then not every Arab or Afghan or Pakistani is upset by the sight of western people wearing shorts; the fact that *some* will be is considered enough for the courteous visitor to respect local custom, however.

And, yes, I realise that many Muslims who follow traditional practices are not "visitors" to the US or the UK but natives, born citizens of those countries. But I hesitated to use the phrase "born and bred"; clearly they are *not* "bred", that is, brought up in the traditional uses and practices of the nations they live in. Just as the children of US otr UK diplomats or other expatriates living in other countries often adopt a few (or none) of the local customs, may learn the local language, but often do not integrate, these are people who, for whatever reason, choose to live in western countries but not integrate into the populations. So, to my mind, these practices are still foreign practices.

Just my opinions; interested to see what other people say.

Comments

[justjayj.livejournal.com]

But when Muslims come to our countries and some people say "Please do so-and-so, out of respect and courtesy for us," the answer is "no".

But how is it discourteous to wear the veil? I mean, yes, someone verifying ID needs to see a face, but otherwise?

I think we're mixing up "courtesy" and "safety." I might be uncomfortable with, say, a tarted-up 8-year-old and the parents who let her dress that way, but it's not violating my rights in any way. Whereas a person refusing to allow herself to be identified properly is.

I am not suggesting that we lower our standards, but that they meet their own.

To me, that's not what courtesy is all about. You don't treat people the way they treat you; you treat them the way you want to be treated. And this is a matter of courtesy, not law. I would want the right to dress as I see fit in those countries, so I extend it to those in my countries, even though I don't expect reciprocation.

[winterbadger]

You don't treat people the way they treat you; you treat them the way you want to be treated. You don't treat people the way they treat you; you treat them the way you want to be treated.

But the converse of that to me is that you don't go to someone else's house and ask for things that you wouldn't extend to them if they came to yours.

[justjayj.livejournal.com]

I see what you're saying, but again, there are very few ways in which courtesy is enforced by law. (Silence in libraries might qualify.) Courtesy is typically enforced through example (and resultant shame). The "house" example is fallacious once again, because you're talking about the private realm, not the public realm.

[winterbadger]

I see what you're saying, but again, there are very few ways in which courtesy is enforced by law.

Well, I was about to remark how amusing I thought it was that so many comments were addressing legal issue, where that's not really my concern. I can only assume that's a result of much of my readership being American; we're such a litigious society--we seem to think that every social issue is a legal one.

The "house" example is fallacious once again, because you're talking about the private realm, not the public realm.

You may find it fallacious; I do not.

[justjayj.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. I happen to have a big fat libertarian streak down the middle of my liberalism, and I like to keep the public/private divide intact. I do understand why you are offended and even a little concerned about the behavior, but I tend to be a bit more, "Eh, fuck 'em" than most people I know.

[winterbadger]

:-) Fair enough.

And, in the end, I am most interested in people's opinions, and while we can debate points of views or such few actual facts as pertain to the conversation, at the end of the day, each person is going to have their own perspective, which may or may not be swayed by hearing others'.

[justjayj.livejournal.com]

True dat. :)