interesting discussion

from a discussion of Angel here:

See, I think it's people's nature to be good, and from there it's a long slide down toward evil. You can stop it at any point by simply taking action. Something has to start that downward slide, though...

I'm not sure that I think that it's everyone's nature to be good. I think that it's in everyone's nature to fulfill their own desires. And that some, many, people are conditioned at an early age to find happiness in fulfilling the needs (or desires) of others.

I think for some people that conditioning is reinforced by social means (a failure to follow the imperative towards considering the needs of others will result in social isolation), or by the image of a vengeful god (god will hurt you if you're not good to other people) or a god who leads by example (god helps people, so how can we do any less?), by programming of the self (if you don't help others, you will be a bad person), or simply by self-interest (if people always help those in need, then everyone in need--including someday probably you--will get help when they need it). Obviously the motivations that depend on a complusive deity are the most effective, if you can convince people to believe in the deity; I may be able to convince myself I don't care what other people think of me or socila or self-programming are just imposed on me from the outside and don't have any real moral force, but if there really is a god then its desires are presumably irresistable.

oh, wow! Peter, lookie!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=44112&item=5920941008

Also see the rest of his auction.

Thanks for the link, robbysmom!

Nice(an) guys finish first! or, Looking for a Few Good Bastards

OK, a group of us are going to try playing the Perfect Captain's In The Shadow of Byzantium by mail. You can read about it here, but in summary, it's a boardgame of 13th century Byzantine politics (and that's a geographic use of "Byzantine" as well as a descriptive one).

"In the Shadow of Byzantium" puts you at the head of a principality struggling to survive and overpower your neighbours. Judicious use of slender finances to create armies, alliances and acts treachery is essential to victory. Bind other princes to you with marriage alliances to gain a breathing space to perhaps build fortifications to protect your land. Who dares truly wins in this game of big chances and big payoffs, but the winner of today could easily be the loser tomorrow.....

We have two or three spaces left, depending on whether we play with a moderator or not. Anyone interested? Our game of Princes of the East (another Perfect Captain game, that one of 11th century crusader kingdoms and their Muslim neighbors) was very enjoyable and ended in an upset victory by one of the least likely contenders.