interesting discussion

[winterbadger]

from a discussion of Angel here:

See, I think it's people's nature to be good, and from there it's a long slide down toward evil. You can stop it at any point by simply taking action. Something has to start that downward slide, though...

I'm not sure that I think that it's everyone's nature to be good. I think that it's in everyone's nature to fulfill their own desires. And that some, many, people are conditioned at an early age to find happiness in fulfilling the needs (or desires) of others.

I think for some people that conditioning is reinforced by social means (a failure to follow the imperative towards considering the needs of others will result in social isolation), or by the image of a vengeful god (god will hurt you if you're not good to other people) or a god who leads by example (god helps people, so how can we do any less?), by programming of the self (if you don't help others, you will be a bad person), or simply by self-interest (if people always help those in need, then everyone in need--including someday probably you--will get help when they need it). Obviously the motivations that depend on a complusive deity are the most effective, if you can convince people to believe in the deity; I may be able to convince myself I don't care what other people think of me or socila or self-programming are just imposed on me from the outside and don't have any real moral force, but if there really is a god then its desires are presumably irresistable.

Comments

[robbysmom.livejournal.com]

Yes, child of the Enlightenment. See Voltaie's Treatise on Toleration for an argument I believe is very similar to yours.

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_2/voltaire.html

[winterbadger]

That's actually

http://www.wsu.edu/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_2/voltaire.html

And thank you! :-)

[robbysmom.livejournal.com]

no problem. sorry for the extra code in the URI. That was copied str8. . .

[azbound.livejournal.com]

My only comment is this: If as much energy went into trying to solve actual problems in this world as analyzing a character on a TV show (a show that doesn't even exist anymore), then I'm thinking the world might be a fine and dandy place to live. But that's just me.

[winterbadger]

Well, in the case of at least one of the participants, this is her way of unwinding after 12 hours of duty in a war zone. So I'm guessing her energy is being pretty well consumed by other things. :-)

[azbound.livejournal.com]

Don't mind me - I'm having a cranky day.

[selki.livejournal.com]

It may not be broadcast anymore, but it exists as much as books do. Ever read a book or poem that influenced you? Ever been inspired by a character, either negatively or positively? Endless talking about fictional characters and theoretical situations doesn't do much for the world, but fiction gives a common frame of reference for discussion, and discussion sometimes changes peoples' minds, or firms their resolve. That's not nothing, in my book.

I'm not a big fan of Angel (still aggravated by char. devel. and the ending), but still.

[selki.livejournal.com]

I think that it's in everyone's nature to fulfill their own desires.

Gah. I don't have much time today to get into this, but here's my take on it (with thanks to Nietsche, Schopenhauer, cog psychs, Thomas More, and others):

When we're born, we have a difficult time distinguishing ourselves from our environment. We develop preferences as we grow (perhaps some are inborn, but many if not all of these can change). As we grow, we get a better sense of ourselves, and what parts of our environment we control. Some people mostly stay reactive to their environments and the desires/preferences etc. that happen to have developed in them. The lucky* ones, though, the more they examine themselves, the more they realize they're connected to the universe, and that the more they help their fellow creatures along with themselves, the richer the universe gets, enriching their own lives.

This is not necessarily in direct conflict with what you wrote above, but the feel is different to me. Maybe it has to do with free will vs. instinctive reactions. Even if that Wolfram&Hart guy on Angel was right and nothing matters (good and evil will always struggle), we can still make choices. We're all fools for something, I'd rather be a fool for love. OK, rambling now.

* not saying it's all luck, necessarily.

and shooting from my hip

[wickedknight.livejournal.com]

I feel that people are born with an inbuilt desire for security.

This desire for security manifests itself in a desire for certainity. A desire to make sense of your environment and one's future.

Thats my take on religion, god is the absolute provider of certainty. Don't understand it? It's all allright because it's god will. What happens when youi die? God takes you in.

God answers all the grey areas in our quest for a comprehensive world view.

I envy those people who can so blindly believe in something that can offer such succor.

As for the inherit goodness of a persons nature. I counter with the argument that good and bad are arbitrary concepts born of the human desire to label and make sense of the world and have no bearing in reality.

Rather what we percieve as good is merely those actions that reassure our world views and reinforce our beliefs.