many thanks!

[winterbadger]

Thanks to everyone who replied to my previous post; I was trying (not entirely successfully) not to make replies myself because I was more interested in hearing other people's points of view than in having a debate.

I would be interested, however, in discussing reactions to the proposition, outlined in the op-ed Brooke mentioned and elsewhere, that the niqab is not part of the cultural norms of western society, and that the same sort of consideration for western norms ought to apply to people who bring their customs to our countries that people of other nations expect when we westerners visit their countries. Yes, not every western person is offended or upset by women wearing the niqab, but then not every Arab or Afghan or Pakistani is upset by the sight of western people wearing shorts; the fact that *some* will be is considered enough for the courteous visitor to respect local custom, however.

And, yes, I realise that many Muslims who follow traditional practices are not "visitors" to the US or the UK but natives, born citizens of those countries. But I hesitated to use the phrase "born and bred"; clearly they are *not* "bred", that is, brought up in the traditional uses and practices of the nations they live in. Just as the children of US otr UK diplomats or other expatriates living in other countries often adopt a few (or none) of the local customs, may learn the local language, but often do not integrate, these are people who, for whatever reason, choose to live in western countries but not integrate into the populations. So, to my mind, these practices are still foreign practices.

Just my opinions; interested to see what other people say.

Comments

[gr-c17.livejournal.com]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Don't scan it...read it...read it again, good.

I may or may not like the niqab, I may or may not like their other customs, but if it is claimed to come from a religious belief no government or individual has the right to STOP them. If certain Island religions can cut the head of chickens, if certain "richer than God" televanglists can be tax exempt, if certain "cults" can cut themselves off from the modern world, if as a practicing member of certain "friendly" groups I'm exempt from the draft, then how do we with a straight face say "I'm offended or put off by your niqab, take it off"?

Who on winterbadger friends list would really tell a Catholic nun "your habit offends me, take it off"? Or how about telling a Buddhist monk "put on some pants"?

Re-read those words at the top, I'll wait. That is the Ideal to which this country must strive, we may never get there but we need to keep moving in that direction.

[azbound.livejournal.com]

The problem isn't with the robes - it's with covering the entire face, except for the eyes (and in some cases, even those are screened).

This is my own opinion, but if someone were talking to me fully covered, I'd alternate between having a hard time taking the conversation seriously (and not thinking I was somehow dropped into a Scooby-Doo cartoon) to wondering what the speaker was hiding.

I respect the religion. I respect the choice women make (hoping that it really is them making it) to be covered, and if in a Muslim country that required it, I would do the same. But the full covering of the face just doesn't sit with me well.

[winterbadger]

Except that it isn't as simple as that. Religious organizations and religious practices are restricted by law all the time, where it is deemed that society has a legitimate interest in doing so. And that's just in the US, where we have a Constitution that includes the amendment you quote. In the UK, there is no such written constitutional protection for religion and there is, in fact, an established religion (at least in England), even though most of its demands on governance have been relaxed.