winterbadger | and while I'm grummishing...

from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5362052.stm)

Reid Speech Disruped by Hecklers
...
During his time in Leytonstone, east London, which also involved a visit to a mosque, Mr Reid said community and religious leaders could play a key role in the fight against terrorism.

The home secretary said "our fight is not with Muslims generally". Instead, he said, there was a "struggle against extremism".

And, warning that terrorist fanatics sought to influence youngsters, he said: "There is no nice way of saying this. These fanatics are looking to groom and brainwash children, including your children, for suicide bombings, grooming them to kill themselves in order to murder others."

He stressed that by protecting families the community would protect itself.

The speech came after some Muslim leaders expressed concerns about the UK's foreign policy and called for it to be changed.

Mr Reid did not tell Muslim parents to report their concerns to the police but wants them to confront their children's behaviour and talk to them.
...
Massoud Shadjareh, who chairs the Islamic Human Rights Commission, said Mr Reid's demands were "unrealistic and not demanded from any other community".

Sorry, but this strikes me as totally ostrich-headed. It's unrealistic to ask parents to keep an eye on their kids, to try to keep them from getting recruited by terrorists? Why would that be?

And, yes, people in, say, the Welsh Methodist community are not being asked the same thing because the Home Sec is not speaking in Welsh Methodist communities because Welsh Methodists ahve not been setting off bombs and trying to kill people!

Obviously terrorism and the underlying tensions in the British Muslim community and between that community and the rest of society that lead to young people being recruited by terrorists are are something that all Britons are concerned about and that all Britons need to try to address. Ethnic and religious animosity and related economic and social problems are things that need to be solved by everyone coming together. But there's no point asking me to keep an eye on my kids--I haven't got any! In the same way, there's hardly much point in asking the parents of nonMuslim youth to look out for and try to intercept Muslim terrorist recruiters from suborning their kids--those kids are not the ones being recruited by Islamic extremists for bombing campaigns! Multiculturalism doesn't mean throwing common sense out the window.

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Nope, don't write them off. But Reid is trying to apply a plaster to a gaping wound. And considering the 'American Taliban' member, John Walker Lindh , it seems logical to give this talk to everyone in the country.

A British (don't think he was Muslim) commentator on the 10 o'clock news discussed how British Muslims basically feel more isolated than Muslims anywhere else in the Western world. What Reid did really serves to further that isolation, especially amongst the targeted kids. Our multiculturalism isn't working very well here, and it's pretty obvious to notice it if you're not a member of a majority religion in this country, let alone a member of another race. :(

And considering the 'American Taliban' member, John Walker Lindh , it seems logical to give this talk to everyone in the country.

That's certainly true; according to what I read up to try and educate myself, there's a very considerable increase in Muslims-by-conversion in the UK (as there is in the US and Australia as well, just judging from the news--one of the most stirring and impressive speakers in the US Mulism community that I've heard is a convert).

British Muslims basically feel more isolated than Muslims anywhere else in the Western world.

I can understand how they might feel that way, but it's my impression that, bad as their situation may be, they are actually better tolerated/more accepted in the UK than in the US. :-( Not that that's saying much, I understand.

Our multiculturalism isn't working very well here, and it's pretty obvious to notice it if you're not a member of a majority religion in this country

Does it make it in some ways worse that most people in the UK are not actively religious at all? In that it makes people who practice any religion openly stand out more, and people who practice a "foreign" religion (because, as we all know, the Christmas Story took place in the Cotswolds ;-) doubly so?

I don't recall the commentator's name, and I can't find any reference to him thus far on the BBC website, but he cited an international study that pointed out that isolationism is greater for Muslims in the UK than in the US. I can't find his reference, but here's a Ph.D dissertation from Penn that basically advises the UK to check out the US model since there's more integration in the US.

http://lauder.wharton.upenn.edu/pdf/Integration%20and%20Isolation%20%20A%20Comparative%20Study%20of%20Immigrant%20Muslims%20in%20the%20US%20and%20UK.pdf#search=%22international%20study%20muslims%20isolation%20uk%22

Does it make it in some ways worse that most people in the UK are not actively religious at all?

But the majority of people still come from a Christian background and will tick off 'Christian' on surveys even if they've not been to church in years. Christmas may seem to be a secular holiday to some, but most non-Christians don't see it that way. Christianity is pervasive everywhere here.

...basically advises the UK to check out the US model since there's more integration in the US.

That's very scary. :-(

Christianity is pervasive everywhere here.

Please tell me you mean that in "cultural relgion" terms! If I thought that active Christianity were as prevalent in the UK as it is in the US, I would seriously consider my position about moving (plus doubt my sanity--it's never seemed that way; when I lived there in 1985 and was a practicing Christian, the only other people I saw when I went to church every week were very few in number and 95% of them over the age of 60).

BTW, I really have to thank you for all your comments in this thread. It's invlauable to me to have a friend with your perspective who's interested in keeping up this discussion!

It probably is more cultural Christianity here than the type of right-wing born-again Christians you can encounter in parts of the US. :)

Remember that I spent 21 years in Boulder just prior to moving here, where religion wasn't part of the schools. I was isolated in Fantasy Island -- I wasn't really in the US. No Christmas decorations, no Christmas songs, etc. We had Winter Break and Spring Break -- no Easter Break. And it's sheer coincidence if Spring Break is anywhere near Easter. Teachers can take up to three religious holidays off a year -- for any religion. (Parents can write notes for kids to miss school for them also.) I still remember the Friday before Winter Break one year when the kids in my 9th grade class were wishing each other happy holidays: Christmas the next week for the Christmas; the first night of Chanukah that night for the Jews; Ramadan was already on for the Muslims; Yule was that weekend for the Pagans. (We had a lot of out Pagans there.)

But there was one boy in the class left out: a Buddhist. (Boulder has a fairly decent sized Buddhist community, what with the huge Shambala Center downtown, Shambala in the foothills and Naropa University literally down the street from where I taugh, etc.) The other kids were sorry he was left out, and they asked him if there weren't any upcoming Buddhist holidays.

"When you're a Buddhist," he said with a smile, "every day is a holiday." :)

Wow! I didn't know there *were* places like that in the US (outside of Berkeley, I suppose :-).

And I love the story about the holidaysl I have to tell that to my mum--she would love it!

Boulder is also known as the People's Republic of Boulder. It was so named by a member of the state legislature (years ago) from Colorado Springs, a very conservative part of the state. He meant it as an insult; Boulderites took it as a compliment. :)

There's a Buddhist monk who, for years, would beat his drum every Friday late afternoon/early evening. He had a certain route in the downtown, and I first saw/heard him in '79. In '93, I bought a condo downtown and it was on his route. I'm not sure if it was the same man, but it was reassuring on Fridays to hear and see him.

Boulder is different. Sometimes I truly miss it. We're going there this summer, and I'm planning on two weeks since I'm off and we have plenty of crash space there. :)

Once, when the Dalai Llama came to speak at Naropa, Boulder High kids were able to attend. (Naropa literally is right down the street from Boulder High -- maybe seven blocks away. And the University of Colorado is just a couple of blocks the other way up a hill. Those kids are surrounded by all sorts of interesting cultures. :) Anyway, the kids from the Peace Group met him. Pretty cool. To be honest, those kids had a decent school, and a lot of interesting guest speakers. The school hosts some speakers for the University of Colorado World Affairs Conference each spring, with some talks coming to the Boulder High auditorium, which actually is a pretty good venue. (E-town has been taped there when the Boulder Theatre isn't available.) The kids have priority seats at those talks. When I was there, Roger Ebert, Molly Ivins, Margot Adler, etc. were regular speakers at the high school. Not bad.

Now you know why I went through culture shock when I left Boulder. Not every city of its size has an abortion clinic attached to a women's health center with sliding scale fees and free GYN/family planning services to poor women? Really? (I used to moonlight there.) Not every city of its size has a regional Peace Center? (Rocky Mountain Peace Center is there). Not every city of its size has a working chautauqua from the 19th century? Really? Doesn't every high school have a gay/straight alliance? Didn't every city vote in gay rights back in the '80s and transgendered rights in the '90s? I'm serious. I took a lot of things for granted there.

and while I'm grummishing...

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